This is my first attempt at posting a blog, you know… putting your opinion out there for everybody to grammar check and insult your intelligence with. So please, use KY when posting comments.
I have never attempted to hide the fact that I hate indie rock. However, I find my reasons for hating it to be quite valid. Listening to the crap makes me cringe… actually, it made an entire crowd of us at Lollapalooza ‘94 collectively cringe as Pavement played their set. Some people thought the music was so crappy that they wanted it to end ASAP. They communicated this to the band in a way that words like “Boo” and “You suck” just can’t… more specifically, by throwing piles of mud and garbage at the stage. The deluge was so great that Pavement was forced to flee the stage, cutting their set short to the relief of everybody who wasn’t tone deaf. Oh sure, Pavement will play it up now as if the collective crowd anger had something to do with their fued with the Smashing Pumpkins at the time. Most anybody who was there and forced to listen to that crap will tell you otherwise.
If electronic music causes that same gut-cringe reaction in you, I have no problem with that. What gets me is the people who list reasons for hating the genre, none of which are real. They are made up, regurgitated arguments that really have no bearing in reality. I’ll list a few:
1. I like music with real instruments.
A girl I knew at college once said this to me. Shortly thereafter, Tupac Shakur came up on her random playlist. WTF? Electronic music has fake instruments, but rap/hip-hop is legit? I could maybe, possibly understand this reasoning had she been a fan of music with guitars, drums, bass, violins, etc., but hip-hop and electronic music use pretty much the same equipment! Samplers for beats and sound effects, editing tools for production effects… hell, even turntables are prominent in both styles.
Even this argument coming from a die-hard rock fan makes no sense. How is a keyboard, theremin, synthesizer, sample-driven drum pad, even a set of human vocal chords not a real instrument? Anybody care to define a fake instrument? This kinda sorta leads into the next one:
2. Why would I want to see somebody press a button on a keyboard?
Somebody lied once. Somebody told hundreds of people that electronic music shows consist basically of someone coming out on stage and pressing a button on a keyboard then walking away as the song is pumped out of the speakers. Apparently they all believed him and propagated the myth and we ended up with millions of people who think that a computer automagically produces the music while the composer sits on stage and eats a sandwich. I’m not exaggerating. Well, ok… I am about the sandwich part, but the rest I’ve heard. Where do people get this?!
I’ve been going to electronic music shows for years (not to be confused with DJ sets) and I’ve never seen a show that even remotely resembles the scene described above that has been regurgitated to me countless times with slight variations. It’s very obvious to me that anybody who says this has never been to a show put on by an electronic music artist. In many cases, the number of instruments on stage is far, far greater than bands with “real instruments”. The last electronic show I went to was Massive Attack, and they had 2 drummers (because you need that many to accurately reproduce the complex beats their music contains), a guitarist, bassist, and four different singers that would sing during different songs, their voices run through an effects machine that the main singer would operate in real-time to add the right effects at the right time. Actually, thanks to electronic musicians’ superior understanding of production, the sound of electronic music’s live shows more closely resembles the original sound on the albums due to all the effects machines and skill of the operators using them live, in real time, right in front of your eyes. Sure some samples are pre-recorded and played back during the show, but the majority of the music is played live. Somebody please explain to me again how this even remotely resembles somebody telling a comupter to “play song for ppl plz, tnx”.
For all the doubters…
Goldfrapp: entire band on stage (singer, drums, synth, bass… some other stuff too). This video here is pretty much what it was like when I saw her live:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU8chUpmhUY
Juno Reactor: Look at what it takes to recreate this electronic music live:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiSsBY-ehvU
More to add later, or post comments with links and I’ll add them here.
October 9, 2006 at 10:48 pm |
Ok here’s the thing.
You know of all people, I love electronic music. It’s treated me well and made me some money in the process.
However, all I do is press buttons. I press a LOT of buttons, but really, that’s all I’m doing.
Anything other than that, is pop or whatever close genre with electronic elements.
You go to a lot of shows with really professional, really well thought out productions.
Myself, I load everything i need, start up a handful of programs and hit triggers and use a midi controller all night.
I’m not trying to downplay your explanations in the least, only offering you a contrary.
Also, I love Pavement. I challenge anyone to listen to Get A Haircut and not.
99% of what’s labeled as indie rock is absolute horseshit, I’ll agree. But a lot of really good music is swept into that category undeservedly.
A lot of the good elements of what’s deemed “indie-rock” go ignored because of that, and that’s really sad. When done well, it’s best viewed as a whole. rather than the individual parts of the music. For instance, Mew. Listening to them, they are indeed weird, but taken as a whole, you get a whole new soundscape.
Just my $0.02
October 9, 2006 at 10:51 pm |
Also, in reference to #2
The person that lied, obviously just got back from seeing Kraftwerk.
October 9, 2006 at 11:25 pm |
@Karl
I dunno, RJD2 played his entire set live with turntables and a drum pad type of machine that he loaded cartridges into with different samples during different songs. Not only did he play that live, he had a projection on the back wall that switched from a pre-recorded DVD of video to go along with set to a camera he had mounted near his equipment so you could see him tapping out the beats on the drum pad and spinning the turntables. One of the most impressive, but apparently talentless, displays of electonic music performance I’ve ever seen. Yeah yeah, it has turntables so it isn’t purely electronic, and many people lump RJD2, DJ Shadow, etc. in with hip-hop, but I disagree with that assessment.
Didn’t know that about Kraftwerk, damn them. Ruined my whole argument.
I guess I should say that electronic music shows have come a long way, and now it’s a rarity to find one of that style.
October 10, 2006 at 12:56 am |
And oh yeah, one of my favorite bands is indie rock, LANDSPEEDRECORD. It baffles that they aren’t more well-known in indie circles…. well not really, most indie rock fans have an aversion to “good music”, hahaha.
For serious, I can respect some indie rock bands. Most are crap, some are interesting but not by style, and one, only one, stands out to me for their ability to carry a tune and have very consistently interesting, hilarious and/or thoughtful lyrics (Landspeedrecord). It’s probably my own fault… since I was turned off by so much indie rock so early on that I didn’t delve too far into the genre. I’m sure there are more I would like, I just don’t feel like digging through all the crappy ones to find a few gems. I have a much higher success rate with other genres so I tend to stick to those.
October 18, 2006 at 3:34 pm |
I still think it is a talent level far less than playing an actual instrument.
The only “electronic” bands I’ve seen would probably be My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult — who DEFINITELY lip-sync at points, and didn’t really do too much besides stand there singing. And he was pretty bad at that too. (But I loved seeing them live nonetheless.)
There may be intriciate rhythms to spinning a record, but that’s still only an equivalent level of difficulty to the right hand strumming of a guitar. What about the left hand which has to pick from 144 different frets?
October 18, 2006 at 7:08 pm |
@Clint: What you describe there is a DJ set, where a DJ puts on a record and it plays, then they beatmatch it to the next song near the end (or transition from one song to the next somehow). In my post I said I’m not counting those.
I definitely don’t enjoy being at those nearly as much as other modern electronic acts onstage. Now a turntablist does a different thing entirely, spinning and mixing a song live, right in front of you onstage. RDJ2 was especially fun to watch since he had the camera there aimed at his console and you could see him spinning, tapping out the drumbeats on the sample-driven drumpad, etc. It would be seriously difficult to argue that that didn’t take talent, as much as a guitarist.
Speaking of which, he pulled out a guitar at the end of the show, played a song and sang it too, just in case there were any doubters still in the audience, haha.
@Karl: You were right about Kraftwerk, as seen here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j72xBFffZck
Fortunately, the average electronic music show has come a long way since them.
I’m going to edit the original post with links to different Youtube live electronic acts.
October 19, 2006 at 9:36 am |
You can actually (in posts, not comments), say and have it be embedded directly into the post.
Anyway, I still think Randy Rhoads has more musical talent than D.J. Q-Bert. (Which is the only turntablist I’ve been exposed to and like, a bit.)
I also think “remixing on the spot” is another word for “improvisation” which is another way of saying “I do everything randomly, so of course I remix it live, because I could never do a note-for-note perfect rendition of something I previously improvised”. . .
May 11, 2007 at 2:17 pm |
Hey, I found your blog through Clint’s; hope you don’t mind a random comment from me!
Spoken as a person who HAS done music recording before, utilizing both traditional instruments (guitar, piano), AND electronic music (using my keyboard to simulate certain sounds), I agree that electronic music is comprised of real instruments.
A keyboard is most definitely an instrument. Some level of skill and coordination is still required to be able to play it AT ALL. If I was playing some Mozart on an electronic keyboard, would that be considered “fake” or “simulated?” Probably not. But if you integrate some drum beats into your song, then people immediately assume you have no musical talent.
99% of the bands I have ever heard in my life use some sort of “simulated” drums or instrumentation. it’s just a question of how much of it is simulated. I’ll agree with Clint that actually playing a guitar takes a lot more skill/talent than simply playing the guitar melody on the keyboard, but, you still have to know how to play the piano to even replicate a guitar sound.
Ok, done rambling now.
Good post!
May 11, 2007 at 2:29 pm |
@Parthena: I don’t mind at all, thanks for the input!
Many people have told me they don’t like remixes. Uhm… that doesn’t make sense, considering the fact that the “original” version of a song these days IS a remix! It’s just the remix that made the cut and was selected for the album.
“How can this be?!” I can hear already. Well, go look at any CD single. You’ll have the album version, the radio version, the “Gum on my tooth” (or whatever silly name they gave to the remix) version. Ever wonder why the “Gum on my tooth” version isn’t the original? Probably not, but here’s the answer: they selected the other version to be the “original” and not this one.
September 2, 2007 at 11:02 am |
Nice debate. I play live electronic music, and can tell you that I do a lot more than press a button. But I have seen Turntablists who are working a hell of a lot harder than I do live. How do we quantify the legitimacy of this performance art? How do we know what is ‘real’? Well, that’s the big question nowadays, isn’t it? Isn’t it getting harder and harder to spot the fake Gucci and Rolex? Isn’t the High Def reality that much harder to get a grip on? Orchestral intruments, which are ‘plug-ins’ for computer music sequencers, play the classical’esque’ music you hear in many movies these days, but still ppl will say that’s more ‘real’ than the Yamaha DX7 synth soundtrack from an eighties movie. Reality is being hidden behind more and more veils.
DJ’s (not turntablists) are a perfect example. Many DJ’s synchronize their movements on the mixer to ‘drops’ or other recognizable moments in the music. Listeners then automatically think the DJ is causing the ‘drop’ and another illusion is born.
Reality is becoming so complex, that it is becoming subjective.
November 8, 2007 at 5:12 am |
Speaking as a former member of a electronic jam band (http://www.mischiefcommittee.org) as well as a fan of a number of electronic groups that do live acts, the most notable being VNV nation, I encourage you to spread your views to all and sundry – the live electronic age is still in its infancy, and we need to convince people that there’s something to a live show that’s *not* in a studio recording..
I hope to get with another group sometime soon.. I’ve been working on my chops, and trying to mind-meld with my latest attempt at a RTS, which is a E-Mu XL-7. I do live broadcasts via internet radio station sometimes, let me know if you’d like to tune in sometime.
March 9, 2008 at 9:51 am |
Judging from previous posts, all of you guys here are well into electronic music. So I decided to post, as I represent different POV. I was raised on classical music, I played piano since I was 5, then guitar and some drums, but only recreational. What I find about most of electronic music, is that it bores me to hell, sure I find some songs enjoyable (songs from Massive Attack, Chemical brothers, Prodigy), and I can listen to them more than once sometimes. Buut most electronic stuff I hear, that’s called hits or something, Just makes me cringe in pain, when I am forced to listen to it (those nasty music enabled cellphones). As I’m not well versed in arts of modern electronic genres I find it hard to differentiate one song from the other, let alone the genres. Sure I know when voice sample is different, and lead musical instrument is different, but I fail to see the different “feel”. To me it’s like every song is just one song, only remixed and spiced and salted here and there (as I said I’m not talking about every artist, just the stuff I have the unfortunate opportunity to hear when in public). And people listen and enjoy that. My theory about popularity of electronic music is that it’s easy, it’s simple and it’s everywhere. About the argument’s debunking. I like real instruments, it’s just a simple statement to tell you that we think that you are retarded and listen to crap music, it’s not a real argument because it’s really easily debunked. For me it’s more about the depth of the music, the different instruments, the different beats, the complexity. Most songs that I like, when I listen to them for the n-th time I always find something new about them, when I listen to some electronic music for the n-th time I have freakin enough,
March 9, 2008 at 4:20 pm |
@Summner: Thanks for the input. I don’t mind different opinions about electronic music as long as they are well thought out, like yours.
I fully agree with you about “hit” electronic music. Have you ever heard of Gunther? From what I can tell, he, his music and his videos exist for the sole purpose of showing just how bad “hit” music in Europe has become. Check out his video for “Ding Dong Song” here, it pretty much skewers the entire genre in a single video:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7284751201680710911
About the depth of electronic music, it varies from song to song just like any other genre. About what you said about complexity and beats, I find it hard to believe that there is any other style out there that tops the complex percussion of electronic music, except maybe jazz. Some jazz drummers, from what I’ve heard, are the only ones that come anywhere close to producing complex and elaborate beats with a real drumset. As for complexity, layers, hearing new things when you listen later, don’t go to dance music for that.
March 13, 2008 at 11:17 am |
A keyboard is a real instrument — but if, say, you have a riff of 8 keyboard notes repeating during an entire song … If you’re not actually hitting those 8 notes every time they audibly play — you are indeed less talented than someone who ACTUALLY plays their instrument throughout a song. Of course, if you can simply push buttons to play pre-played rhythms/loops/riffs — you could conceivably play a bunch of instruments at once!
Which is neat, but I don’t consider that to be “as musical” of a talent. It’s more like comparing drums to guitar — both are instruments, but one requires more musical knowledge and more talent: The guitar. A drum only has 4-5 “notes”; a guitar has 144. Many more combinations.
November 4, 2008 at 1:07 pm |
If it sounds good, it dosn’t matter how it’s done!!!
i’m a drummer primarly, but i also “produce” or whatever , on sequencers and make electronic music, from samples mainly.
i love playing drums – i dont think you get the same buzz programming beats on a laptop to actually using your own skill to keep it perfectly in time and physically hit something!
but i love making electronic music, because usually you make it on your own (as aposed to a band format) so you can be in complete control of everything and it’s very much a more personal vibe.
But i love the bond you have in a real band.
both are good, but each to your own!
November 4, 2008 at 1:14 pm |
Wait a minute!! i disagree with clint completly!!
i’d say both require a simular about of talent to be honest, sure with guitar you have to know more key theorys, but with drums you have to know miles more rhyhem stuff as to a guitarist! alot of the time the guitarist dosn’t play through the whole song whereas the drummer usually does, so the drummer is usually fitter and has more stamina!
also guitarist only use 2 arms, usually moving at simular times to match fingers (frets) with the strum. Drummers use all 4 limbs – often independantly!!
As for your notes comparrison – a drum kit can be built up indefanatly! does theres as many notes as you can afford! whereas guitar has only 22 or 24 frets. EVER. you cant buy extra frets!!
Plus theres drums like steel drums which have many notes you can get out of each drum!
sorry to go on – but i’m sticking up for the drummers!!
November 4, 2008 at 8:02 pm |
Guitar has 24 frets times 6 strings, for 144 different notes. Then you deal with 2-note intervals, and you have 144 different first notes, with a 2nd note that is generally within 3 or 4 frets on the other 5 strings — or about 4*5=20 different second notes that your finger can reach with the first note. Which makes 144*20/2 (divide by 2 because each interval would have 2 permutations that are the same 2 in swapped order) = 1440 different combinations of 2 notes. Then you add in 3, 4, 5, and 6 note combinations.
Of course with drums there are still combos, but they are less valuable as there are not separate notes. And the max combo is 4, the number of limbs you have. You can easily “buy more frets” with a guitar by using a pitch-shifter pedal, or buying an exotic guitar. But you can never buy more limbs.
There’s simply far more to choose from with a guitar. Then you have muting, strumming style.. And of course pedals, which are often operated with the feet in unison to music (wah-wah pedal). And almost all the guitar music I listen to has guitar 100% of the way through. You sound like a drummer who knows how to program a synthesizer but not how to play a guitar, which would explain things.
There’s a reason drummers don’t have huge fan bases like guitarists. Very few have reputations. Famous guitarists like Steve Vai, Jimi Hendrix, or even Yngvie Malcolm have names that are well-known even to people who have never listened to them. I can’t say I’ve ever heard of any drummer before listening to the band he was in first. (Bands with good drummers: Slayer, Descendents, Metallica.)
And there’s a reason why there are 1000s of hours of recorded guitar only music, but I have yet to ever hear of a drums only album. There’s simply not as much to choose from. It’s a support instrument.